Luke Heezen: In the north of Flevoland, on the easternmost point of Emmeloord, lies the Waterloopbos [name of a park]. A forest in which hundreds of research projects have been conducted on the behavior of water. For example, the delta works for the port of Rotterdam. These are scale models simulating real hydraulic systems that are no longer in use. The so-called Deltagoot is one of them. A colossal concrete box of 250 meters, in which the wave action was tested to scale in case a tsunami were to hit the delta works. The artists of Atelier de Lyon and RAAAF dug out Deltagoot and used immense circular saws through the 80 centimeter thick reinforced concrete. The large plates that were separated, were shifted and reset like fallen dominoes. 

If you now walk through and around the work that was completed in 2018 and has been given the name Deltawerk//, two impressions fight for priority. On the one hand you see the vulnerability of this model devised by humans that is supposed to stop tsunamis. On the other hand, there is admiration for the bravery to build such a thick concrete tank and to want to take on the battle with the water. I am with Erik Rietveld of RAAAF, half of the art duo that he forms with his brother Ronald Rietveld.

Welcome Erik. Nice that you are here. You wanted to do something with one of those models. Why the Deltagoot, that immense tank?

Erik Rietveld: Yes, we were fascinated by the sheer size of the Deltagoot. It is the largest model, a huge object that appeals to the imagination. 250 meters, people often do not realize how big that actually is. And it has walls that are almost a meter thick. And we really wanted to question the vulnerability of the man-made Netherlands. Or actually the intention that Dutch engineers have to build a man-made Netherlands. And to protect us from rising sea levels. And in this day and age, of course, the question is increasingly whether that idea of we are building an undesirable Netherlands. Or whether that is sustainable. And precisely by using the largest model, as it were, to put the saws in it. We felt that we could make that vulnerability tangible for people in a visual sense as well.

Luke: Because that's actually the box, that's the work where the biggest ambition is on display. Like okay, we're going to solve this if we can dump enough material and make a great scale model. Then we can conquer that nature. And you thought, that's actually a kind of, is that hubris? Would you call it hubris?

Erik: Well, I don't know. I think at the time it was the state of the art and the state of scientific thinking. Now in retrospect you could maybe see it as almost as too ambitious. And we were also thinking very differently about the battle against water, it is more about working together with water. And seeing how you can work in tandem, can assist engineers to move more with nature.

Luke: ...but moving along and what does that look like?

Erik: Zandmotor [sand engine] off the coast is now of course a way to dump sand into the water in large quantities. It brings the current, the wind brings it to the coast and then the dunes are reinforced. That's another way to keep sea level rise at bay. 

Luke: Then you actually let the water do the work.

Erik: Yes, you still provide the sand that is needed to strengthen the dunes. But otherwise you actually let nature do part of the work, yes.

Luke: And what you have done is, among other things, cut out parts and placed them crosswise. Perhaps also to break through that powerful form of thinking straight, to block it almost. How did you come up with that shape? Was there any more meaning behind that form?

Erik: Well, the shape, I think the most important thing you see when you're on location, is actually that the box itself is excavated. Previously it was just really underground and people didn't realize how big, how high that box actually was, nine meters. When you stand there, facing nine meters, you suddenly feel yourself becoming very small. So that excavation was really important for us to get that experience of those enormous scale models. In addition, the way the blocks are arranged, we really started playing with that in models, in drawings and sketches. We just tried out a lot for a long time and worked a lot on location, also to get a feel for the qualities of the place. But playing with the model and in drawings and 3D models, that is actually how we arrived at this form. Which for us was very much about getting movement in that abstract, hard concrete. I myself always had the feeling, after I saw that tsunami raging in Japan, that the power of water is so enormous. And everything is swept away, from buses to trucks to houses. We often don't realize how large those forces are and by tilting those big blocks of concrete and letting them fall over you, we wanted to give people the feeling of how strong the power of water can actually be.

Luke: Yes, it is also heritage of course, what we see there. Dutch history of battling with water, dealing with water… quite a radical intervention then to start circular sawing in it yourself and to nicely tilt it and break through.

Erik: Yes, we have a slightly different approach to heritage than is usual, we call it hardcore heritage.

Luke: Hardcore heritage? With the music movement of the 90s, I guess?

Erik: Well that went in hard too. But the idea is actually not to put the focus on conservation, so not the saving, which is often what happens now. In the museum a work of art is then placed on a pedestal or a monument that everyone is only allowed to touch very carefully with velvet gloves. Rietveld Schröder House for example, where you can enter with gloves and slippers. In Utrecht, indeed. Crazy, crazy place, no doubt about it. But there is also another way to deal with heritage. That is by radically transforming what is there and what we often take for granted. And instead of it being a building that still evokes a kind of utilitarian memory, you make it a work of art that actually speaks to people's imagination much more than if you were to simply conserve it. It is indeed a national monument. The entire Waterloopbos is a national monument. So we were very happy with the trust we received that we could do that from the National Service for Cultural Heritage.

Luke: And to what extent should the form, as it is now created, still refer to how it was once used? How do you deal with that mental balance?

Erik: Stripped, everything removed that was superfluous. People often do not realize that, but apart from the fact that we dug it out completely, we removed all the earth. There was also a very large shed on it, enormous, a large shed, much larger than the shed we are in now. We demolished that too, there was a big crane on it, we removed it and those were all things that were really important for the function at the time. We were also interested in making a much more abstract work, that is much more for the imagination and questions and makes people thin. More than just telling a story from the past.

Luke: The shapes had to speak more and how it was once used, that had to go to the background, that is a kind of house[?]. Which of course makes it come more to the foreground, because you start to wonder what kind of crazy thing is that?

Erik: We're going to think so now, that's what it does.

Luke: Yes. What is your favorite time of day to see that tank? You've probably seen it many times. I've seen it many times. 

Erik: I still call it a tank…

Luke: … but maybe it's a work of art.

Erik: Yes, it is a work of art. I like to go there in very changeable weather, but actually I think it is the best experience with every weather inconsistency as it changes again. It is a kind of magic crystal ball in that respect or an instrument to learn the weather. The change in the weather is actually reflected by the artwork and that makes it very special in very changeable weather, but I would recommend everyone to, yes, get to know it all again in different types of weather.

Luke: What do you mean it's reflected, because it's concrete, it's not like glass or something?

Erik: Yes, for example concrete when it gets wet, then the moisture is absorbed and then it becomes brownish and then all life arises nicely. What the work also has is that there are a lot of shadow patterns and so in sunny weather then you get there again dark and light play. The reflection in the water always plays a big role, so in that way the work is constantly changing, but you only see that when you come back every now and then.

Luke: Well, I started that introduction with those two extremes. And that can perhaps respect for the bravery with which you then tackle that enormous force of nature. And on the other side, the futility of almost, that you indeed think of this can only fail. Which way do you lean more?

Erik: Well, for us it's really more about questioning that, so asking the question at all, of, yes, in this time of climate change, it is, how possible is it to build a sustainable Netherlands. So I see it more as a question than a statement.

Luke: There are rumors that there are people swimming in the water surrounding the artwork.

Erik: Well, when we make a new work, we always make site-specific work and we try to bring out the qualities of the place of the artwork. And we often make very large works and to show the scale, we almost always put a little person somewhere in the images that we make beforehand, to show people what could eventually become. And in this case it was a figure swimming in that water around the artwork. And then it turns out that it's actually a really nice place to dive into. So it's one of the most special moments to experience the work or the most special way to experience the artwork is actually to just jump into the water and swim through it.

Luke: So how do you swim? Take us through the location.

Erik: From the bridge, it is about 7 meters deep and then you can just really swim in there and then you see the plates falling towards you, as it were.

Luke: And what you might make even smaller when you already have it in the water. 

Erik: Exactly. 

Luke: And you really just hear it.

Erik: And also the sound.

Luke: How has your appreciation for this work changed? Of course, there is a moment when you start and you are in the process of working and now it is completely finished. This is completely finished. Have you gained a different understanding during that period?

Erik: Yes, we worked on this for five years, so it was really a lot of work. What emerged was, when sawing through you get the sawn surfaces, where the concrete gives itself a texture and where you suddenly see the beauty of the pebbles that are in the concrete, and you see that very nicely on the sawn surfaces. So the moment I saw that, how beautiful that reinforced concrete is on the inside, that was one of those very special moments and I always enjoy looking at that even more when I am there. And furthermore, what I said, that it changed with every type of weather, I had not realized before. That is really very special about the work.

Luke: And then you just think, are you going to go on the bottom slab? What does that do to its environment?

Erik: It absorbs it again in some way.

Luke: What is the ideal setting for you? How should it look in 20, 30, 40, 50 years, this work?

Erik: Well, I think the concrete as it is now is fantastic, but what will happen, and I think that is also exciting, is that this is actually also a form of active ruin formation, so in the Netherlands we don't have that many ruins. And here, in fact, in the Waterloopbos there are of course a number of them, which are overgrown by nature, but what this work of art is going to do, is it is also going to be overgrown by the nature that is there. So I'm very curious how that would develop. 

Luke: And then especially through moss and algae and this kind of thing. 

Erik: Yes, think of moss especially. You can see it turning green in some places. Yes, that is an exciting new development.

Luke: And why actually? Why don't you want to have it cleaned?

Erik: It is part of a place where it is actually known. The Waterloopbos has become a national monument, because it is actually such a beautiful symbiosis of nature and engineering art, works of art by engineers, so to speak, and in that way it also seems special to us to let that happen at this place and to see it as an experiment in active ruin formation.  So that was actually the idea of, yeah, that's what we're going to do. It feels like a risk, because cleaning it up, you know what you have. And then you have that super cool concrete structure. But this is something very unpredictable and that's also very nice about it.

Luke: It is hardcore heritage and active ruin formation. 

Erik: Exactly, yes. 

Luke: You just have to go and see it in real life and it has also become a great work. Thank you, nice that you explain it. 

Erik: Thanks for your nice questions.