Luke Heezen: Sea Level is a 1996 artwork by one of the greats of landscape art, the American Richard Serra. He had two concrete walls placed, each 200 meters long, in a straight line, but interrupted by a space of 200 meters and a canal that runs between them. The walls are included in the lowest part of Landschapspark de Wetering in Zeewolde and are exactly as high as the sea level. Walking along the walls you physically experience how high the water would be if we had not built dikes. Probably a simple demonstration, but one that precisely addresses the essence of Flevoland. 

Opposite me sits Demelza van der Maas. Expert in museums and heritage, she obtained her doctorate on the formation of heritage and identity of the IJsselmeerpolders. And she is also chairman of the board of the county of Flevoland. Welcome. 

Demelza van der Maas: Thank you. 

Luke: I call it a simple demonstration, very symbolic. Is that also the way it is looked at here in Zeewolde and how it is appreciated?

Demelza: It has not always been appreciated. If you go back in history and want to investigate when Sea Level was actually made and with what intention, you have to go back to the eighties. Then there was an association, a religious, socialist movement, the Woetbroeders. They wanted to build an education center here in the forests near Zeewolde, where you could follow courses. The idea was that there would be an art route that would connect that center with the center of Zeewolde. That had to be an art route that would have a popular uplifting effect. The people who would walk here in that area would learn something from it. That Woetbroeders Centrum never came, but the municipality was very enthusiastic about that idea of an art route here in Zeewolde. They embraced that, just like the Rijksdienst voor de IJsselmeerpolders. They gave orders to have a concept made for that. That was done by Bas Maters in 1985 already. And that is actually where this landscape park de wetering was designed. And right from the start the idea was that there should also be a large supporting artwork. And that artwork eventually became Sea Level. Richard Serra already got the assignments to make that design in 1989. But it took until 1996 before it would come. Because all those ideals soon came into conflict with the reality of politics. Money had a lot to do with it. It was a very expensive work of art to make. And that idea of what is popular actually clashed a bit with the pragmatism that has always prevailed here in the polder. Well, eventually it came. But you see that the artwork was not immediately embraced. Despite all the ideals, people found it complicated. It is simple, of course, but at the same time very compelling. Because you can't really get around it. You have to adapt your movements to the artwork. And not everyone was happy with that.

Luke: And the stories around it, because you could say that is exactly what this place stands for, what this province stands for, that is almost about your own DNA as residents or is that something that is perhaps formulated too mythically.

Demelza: Yes, in my research I did research on the stories that are told here in the polder about the past. Those pioneers, those people come here to build something new without the burden of the past, that is very prominent and certainly in art. It was also one of the basic principles of the imagination, as this landscape park would eventually be called, or the art initiative around it. How pioneering shaped the people here. And of course you can see that in the art that was eventually put there. But for a lot of people, that's very abstractly represented here. It's minimalistic. Richard Serra is also known as a kind of master minimalist trying to achieve maximum effect with minimal means. But for many people it is still a bit too abstract.

Luke: Yes, that's funny of course with landscape art, you have to want to surrender to that too, you have to see it in it too, you have to find it interesting to go through the thought experiment behind it. What is interesting in that context is that there is now another monument or another work here, at least, an object that is perhaps 100 metres away, a large memorial to the Allied pilots who crashed during the Second World War when it was still the Zuiderzee. A large metal wall of at least 2 meters high, the recess of an airplane propeller and, lest we forget, in large letters.

Demelza: Yeah.

Luke: There hasn't been that much protest about it, what difference do you think it would make?

Demelza: The difference lies in two things, the Richard Serra and also the works of art that were subsequently realized in and around this landscape park, were really at the initiative of governments and art professionals, so people who know how it should be done, who understand art and who also select famous artists, who are internationally renowned, to make a statement here. The monument you are referring to is actually a completely what you would call a bottom-up initiative, so it came from the initiative of a local person, an aviation historian, who felt that it was time to pay attention to the victims who fell during the Second World War pilots, who crashed in the IJsselmeer area, after bombing Germany among other things and who died here, who also raised money for this via crowdfunding, the artwork was designed by a landscape architect and design agency from Zeewolde, it was also made locally here, so it was actually entirely conceived and therefore also supported by the local population, who now have a place to come to that they themselves conceived and designed and in that respect it enters into a very interesting conversation with the Richard Serra, where it was very much about ideal and elevation, but which clashed greatly with what people actually wanted locally and on the other hand there is a monument that was completely conceived, made and realized by the local population and therefore has actually been supported right from the start, so that is a very interesting dialogue that is taking place here in the park now.

Luke: Yes, and yet it is also interesting to see, because there is now an action hashtag, what is this doing here? What does it actually require from reactions of residents or people who often pass by? What do you think of this work and how is it embedded in your life? And then Serra also comes forward positively, there are also positive stories around that. Maybe you could also say that such a landscape work has to grow, has to become undone in that given.

Demelza: Yes, I think it certainly makes sense to say that. In the meantime, the work has of course been around for twenty-five years, the Serra, the Sea Level. So it has had time to settle in the environment, people have adapted their movements to it. They encounter it every day when they walk the dog. They may have had a picnic or a birthday party there. So new memories are created around it. And what you also see, for example through the Land Art weekend, which we are of course in the middle of now, is that all kinds of activities are organized. New performances, sometimes by local theatre associations or artists from the area. And they enter into discussions with such a work of art. And then you see that a new layer of meaning actually arises on top of the original intention of the artist. And I think the more that happens and the more people participate in it, or at least experience, that the work can have many meanings depending on how you relate to it, that it slowly starts to find a place in the community. I think if you had tried this hashtag maybe twenty or fifteen years ago, you would have gotten a very different response. And maybe that's just the aging process.

Luke: Yes exactly, then you can grow with it again and the bond of it, that just has to arise, that has to grow.

Demelza: It is very interesting to see how the reactions you get now compare to the reactions that were there around Kunstreact de Verbeelding, around the year 2004. At that time, there was a really aggressive reaction to the artworks, then real vandalism was committed. In that sense, art did what it had to do, namely it entered into a dialogue. Only the effect was more intense than the artists and initiators of this project had anticipated. And that is also the reason why the project was eventually stopped. And if you now look at what is happening around the artwork and how it has actually found a place, then you see that time has indeed done a lot. And perhaps the climate too, a little.

Luke: Yeah. You are now chairman of the board of Leus from Flevoland. Do you take this knowledge, because that is what you may call it for the knowledge of how public art actually works and how it becomes a bond. Do you also take that into account in how you approach it so as not to end up in the same trajectories as around an imagination?

Demelza: Yes, definitely. What you see is that it is also increasingly becoming a focus for the provincial and municipal governments. When an assignment is put out, they not only think about commissioning a new artwork but also about how to create public support from the very early stages. With people who live in the province or municipality where the artwork is to be realized. This can sometimes be done by organized consultation moments. Or by specifically giving the artist a task in his design process of, where does the conversation start? With people who live in the area, how do they use the space? What are the things that they encounter there? What are their goals? And in that way you can of course do much more with, what we call, the genius loci, the spirit of the place, to incorporate that in your artwork. So you also see that it is often an ongoing process. And things like Land Art Live, where performances are organized at works of art that are already there, they also play a very important role in it. Because you can put the artwork down and assume that it is finished, but actually, that’s only when it begins. At that moment it comes to life and you can, as I just said, try to add those layers of meaning.

Luke: We're actually going to go through all of those works this weekend with an extra story and we'll also talk about their operation. What do you think a good landscape artwork should do, ideally?

Demelza: Yes, then I go back a little to the original idea, also what was behind the imagination. Because that is challenging. So that it challenges you to look at an environment in a new way that you think you know. By adding something to it or by creating movement in whatever way. And by stimulating your senses. And there are places like “twisted horizon” (?) for example. Where you stand at the edge of the water, feel the wind in your hair, smell the water and at the same time see the waves moving. That is a place where you are challenged and stimulated in all sorts of ways. And that is actually the same here at Richard Serra. In my experience, when I stand next to that wall, I feel a bit of the cold of the concrete. That feeling of the water gives. You get a little overwhelmed when you walk along that wall. For me that is the essence of landscape art. That you are really challenged to look at your surroundings in a new way.

Luke: Yes, and also physically, right? 

Demelza: Very physically, yes. 

Luke: So not just looking at that wall, but standing next to it, feeling it, walking past it.

Demelza: Yes, really the sensory aspect of it, which you are never allowed to do in a museum. The touching, many people still tend to stand just a little too close to such a work of art. Here that is allowed, you are allowed to walk over it, you are allowed to walk through it. You can touch it, smell it, feel it and that is what makes landscape art special.

Luke: Yes, so it is there, it is for everyone and make your own story, make sure you have a connection with it yourself. Or not, you don't have to like it of course, but make sure you don't do anything more.

Demelza: Yes, it certainly carries a risk and that is also the risk that has clearly been experienced here. If it is at the moment that you invite people to interact, then that interaction can also turn out differently than you might want. Because people bring their personal baggage to such a work of art. And have associations that you might not expect and that also makes it exciting.

Luke: So maybe we should say, keep the work whole, but still connect with it.

Demelza: That's a good disclaimer.

Luke: Okay, thank you, folks.